I had to stop reading a novel written by one of my favorite Christian authors. One of the characters, a minister, delivered a sermon about how he would rather have a relationship with Christ than belong to a religion of rules. I couldn’t get past that misconception swiped at the Catholic Church.
Whoa, preacher! Who says both are mutually exclusive? Plenty of Catholics have both a relationship with Christ and follow the rules of Christ’s Church precisely because of the loving relationship with Our Savior. Catholics, over centuries, have discovered that the more we follow the rules, delve into Sacraments and understand the traditions of our religion, the deeper one’s relationship with Christ grows. Often, this relationship culminates in a devotion to the Eucharist. When we receive the Eucharist, we are gradually transformed to become one with Christ and this unity beams another light to the world, exactly what Our Lord called us to be.
It is heartbreaking when Catholics leave Holy Mother Church in favor of this so-called “relationship,” as if it were another galaxy alien to Catholicism. Have you former Catholics sought this relationship within the Church? Maybe you haven’t fully explored all that the Catholic Church has to offer. There is a plethora of more intimate groups within a parish or Diocese that a Catholic can choose from depending on the kind of relationship you are seeking.
For instance, a youth group. If you’re a young Catholic who likes upbeat worship music, enjoys fellowship, and listens to appealing speakers on a variety of topics, you could sign up for a youth group in any of the parish or in your college or attend the World Youth Day. Young people openly speak of struggles in a supportive group setting and your fellow members will help make Jesus your role model and friend. St. Alphonsus Liguori encourages this: “Acquire the habit of speaking to God…familiarly and with confidence and love, as you would a dearest friend.”
If you’re up for a bible study, personal “sharings” and testimonies, spontaneous vocal prayer or Christian music for praise, the Charismatic prayer meetings is an optional way to gather with other like minded Catholics outside of Mass. Here, you can meet outgoing Catholics who are on fire with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, inspired by scripture passages and refer to Jesus as their brother.
Seeking a more contemplative spiritual life? Join a rosary prayer group, where families and individuals contemplate the life of Jesus from scripture in the mysteries of the rosary. In praying with the Blessed Mother, rosary devotees honor their love for Jesus by following in the footsteps of His mother, whom He also honored in his life and who followed him to Calvary. Marian Catholics reflect on Mary’s scriptural “fiat” (her humble “yes”) to God’s will, rely on her motherly assistance and intercession and penetrate the depth of St. Louis de Montfort’s theology: “the more consecrated one is to Mary, the more consecrated to Jesus.”
If you’re a Catholic who identifies being a servant of Christ, there’s volunteer work in Catholic Charities, prison ministry, or St. Vincent du Paul Societies. You’ll get a chance to minister to the immigrants, prisoners, homeless, aging or the sick, encounter Our Lord, and find meaning in Jesus words “whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do it to Me.”
If you’ve been impressed by and want to shadow the great saints with their distinct charisms like St. Therese of Liseux (characterized with childlike faith), St. Francis (the peacemaker who surrendered all for Christ), St. Dominic (preacher for Christ specializing in doctrine and theology), there are Carmelite, Franciscan and Dominican orders who will teach you spirituality and guide you on meditative prayer. Surely, any one of the Catholic Church’s thousands of orders will secure a spot to welcome you. The first orders are for those called to a religious or consecrated life; third orders for the laity.
These are only a handful of the intimate groups that are housed in the Catholic Church. But if you prefer to go solo, Eucharistic Adoration is where you can worship quietly and study the Benedictine practice of lectio divina (scripture meditation). If you desire a one-on-one spiritual direction or a 30 day spiritual exercises retreat, the Jesuits will teach you discernment with the Holy Spirit, and the cozy daily “examen” prayer guide.
I wish baptized Catholics appreciated that our God-given destinies began when God laid us in the cradle of Catholicism and that our most fulfilling path to everlasting life is mapped within the membership of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. I wish we would all discover the niche where our talents and gifts promote the fullness of truth and realize that our personalities can flourish within our home, the Church, because God foresaw that it would when He entrusted us into the arms of Catholic parents and gifted us with graces through the Sacraments.
More than one person has admitted that Catholics who leave the Church use the ‘relationship clause’ as an excuse to discard its rules because they find it hard to follow the narrow road of the cross of Church teachings. But anyone who has been in a lasting relationship knows that its longevity is based in humbling ourselves to unwritten rules, to give in to the good of the soul of other, and serving the other as a committed form of love. If we loved Christ, we would love the Church He started through St. Peter and build it up as God’s kingdom on earth. “Its not hard to obey when we love the One whom we obey,” says St. Ignatius.
Our relationship with Christ is how we choose it to be. It is founded on constant prayer and refined by obedience to Christ who gave His life for us, continues to give us life through the Eucharist and promised that the Catholic Church would never be destroyed by the jaws of hell.
55 thoughts on “But Catholics DO Have a Relationship With Christ”
Forming Intentional Disciples is an excellent book to read on this subject.
This is an outstanding article Anabelle! It is so packed with the wonderful depth and beauty of the Catholic Church. For someone that was Protestant for much of his life (me) this is important to hear. I especially liked the comments about the different orders, and the different ways to serve within the Church. God bless and Merry Christmas!
Simply say I will answer your question and then I will ask you one. Answer “Yes.” Then ask “When is the last time you ate the body of Christ and drank His blood?” They know their Bible, they have read John,, they know about those who heard a hard saying and walked away. And they know their answer is “No.”
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So the problem is a delusion. Case closed. But the Magisterium can’t do what you just did….blame 100% of responsibility on those leaving …large numbers in Latin America documented in the recent Pew Research.
The Church leaders inter alia must research how many personalty types are there and are we attracting certain types and repulsing others not on message grounds but on psychological, cultural grounds. Formality and almost totally read liturgy attracts one personality type or several but might be repulsing a percent of humanity on sheerly psychological grounds. Hence Joyce Myers can fill a stadium like no Catholic preacher can because those people want spontaneity, anecdotes, bible quoting like Christ did…from memory… rather than read services….and they drive far to reach her in some cases…further than our walk to Church. We have nothing for them…our service is read from books. They would not find Christ in totally read services. Their personality needs spontaneity.
God got what from all of Christendom? He got fragmentation and Rome doesn’t help God overcome that if Rome just blames 100% on those who have been leaving for centuries.
Personality types…why did Catholicism have some of the best visual artists in the world from 1400 to 1600 but now we have few of that part of humanity. Did they leave after Trent’s catechism ( late 1500’s) emphasized memorizing rules….which was repeated in the Baltimore catechism. We are attracting those fleeing Protestant churches. We are attracting almost no Japanese….one of the most aesthetic cultures on earth. Bishops should be researching this whole area or the Vatican should if Bishops are really drowning in paper work and budgets.
Certain personality types can find Christ in Catholic structures. Others cannot not for dogma reasons but for cultural reasons. The first Christians had non formality at Mass and it went too far and had to be reigned in by Paul. But a Catholic service now with stone churches and hard pews was unknown to them. Christ and others reclining at the last supper with John leaning against Christ’s chest would not attract culturally….millions who are at home in Catholic churches because they are not that informal in their personalities. There are multiple personality types and Catholic culture…rule emphasis, read liturgy as opposed to spontaneity, no convivial bonding on Sunday in most cases not all….this attracts several types and puts off other types. In the long run, Catholicism must have more options culturally on Sunday not just the binary English Latin boring war.
You have made some very important insights into worship styles.
Thank you, James.
Fan, please allow me to disagree. God is picky about how He is worshipped. In the OT he laid out rules for that worship ( E.g. Exodus 12 and 13, Isaiah 6, Daniel 7, Revelation 4 and 5 for starters) and revealed just how He wanted it done regardless of the personality types of the worshippers. It is we who must bend to God, not the other way around, but the protestant rebellion has given the people a taste for disobedience. An insistence on doing it the protestant way, “My Way,” will get you a reservation in the wrong hotel. Lots of personality types prefer that golden calf thing, because it is so much easier than the more rigorous Catholic way.
We disagree but at least you were moderate in response. Nothing prevents the Church from altering the Mass so that it is not almost entirely read text. You could make the Mass two hours…keep the present parts but have half of the two hours spontaneous like for example have people who want to give a small story of how their aunt now has cancer and could we now pray for her….etc. etc. Think of it.
Secondly.
It is rare that there is any emotions in our reading since it is monotone as though we are reading the phone book. Imagine if we used changes in intonation, dramatic pauses, crescendos and decrescendos. It would be less blah. Even on ewtn the Mass sounds totally empty of emotional in the monotone manner in which it is read.
Some personality types may love that and others think…wha.
EF, EVERYTHING prevents the Church from altering the mass. All that you want, the inclusion of emotion, the increased drama, those can all be experienced outside the mass, and were before we quit reading and writing poetry, going to plays, writing music and all those arts that pique emotions. But the mass is not for us–please review those parts of the Bible. The mass is for God. It is for us to please Him, and He gave us a way to do that upon which the old mass is based. Experience the mysticism of doing it His way, leave the human stuff for human activities. Mass is God’s.
Give us the Church de fide document that says the Mass is for God only and not for us with God. You won’t. You’ll give less than de fide from somewhere.
Could you explain what you mean by a de fide document? Like, from an encyclical?
Don’t bother. Here is the Council of Trent (de fide) showing that the Mass is for God and us and the departed. The Sacrifice within the Mass is offered to the Father alone but the result redounds to the people:
CHAPTER II.
That the Sacrifice of the Mass is propitiatory both for the living and the dead.
And forasmuch as, in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass, that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner, who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross; the holy Synod teaches, that this sacrifice is truly propritiatory and that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence. For the Lord, appeased by the oblation thereof, and granting the [Page 155] grace and gift of penitence, forgives even heinous crimes and sins. For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests, who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner alone of offering being different. The fruits indeed of which oblation, of that bloody one to wit, are received most plentifully through this unbloody one; so far is this (latter) from derogating in any way from that (former oblation). Wherefore, not only for the sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but also for those who are departed in Christ, and who are not as yet fully purified, is it rightly offered, agreebly to a tradition of the apostles.
I ran to the store, and all the way was thinking that’s what I should have answered to you, about the part that it’s a sacrifice to expiate sin, which has to be expiated, it’s like gravity or something, even God can’t waive it (that’s why sin is so serious), so the fact that it’s a sacrifice means it’s God-driven, not us-driven. (Of course there’s a bunch of encyclicals and what they call interventions and writings of the saints to back it up.) We DO earn merit as you say, but only to the degree that our sacrifice conforms to the rules established by the Guy who was wronged by the sin. Right? But you found it yourself. So, that’s why we have to do it His way. I’m really cheered up that you did find it yourself. You’ll probably find everything else you need too. But listen–try the traditional mass! Orient yourself a little first. I would recommend a piece called The Merits of the Mass and How to Obtain Them which I did not write but which I have on my blog. It’s how to get the most ‘merit’ you can (for yourself, your friends and relatives, your departed) according to the teachings of the Church.
Thanks for being a good discusser! And now that we talked about the mass, I too find much to admire about Joyce Meyer, and about many protestants in general. I pray for them, they’ll be even more good in the Church.
. I don’t like the Latin Mass at all and I studied Latin for six years. It is not the future. God wants Christians to be one and He will destroy all pet idolizations of all groups including Catholics as to whatever outward accidentals of the Mass they are idolizing which in turn are dividing because Latin means universal to you but to Japan, it means Italian culture…not a universal Church. Latin was the last language Christ heard from those killing Him…Roman soldiers.
Amish have errors but have a better marriage record than Catholicism. You are safer from crime in Amish territory than in most catholic countries in the world. You are sixty times safer from murder in pantheistic Japan than in the two largest Catholic countries….Brazil and Mexico. The third largest Catholic country is the Phillipines….Japan is 24 times safer from murder than them. If God could get a headache, all this would give Him one….but He is Heaven…no headaches.
Please distinguish Catholicism (with teachings containing fullness of truth, not partial truths like the Amish) & individual practitioners of Catholicism (who are sinners while on earth; if they cooperate & constantly accept God, “works in progress” if you will). From what I’ve read, Japan might have low murder rates but it has high suicide rates & a lot of individuals living miserable, isolated lives while ironically living in large cities such as Tokyo (some Japanese even invented “sexual” robots, with much praise of lonely Japanese men/consumers). As to Mexico, I don’t know if you’ve ever lived there & studied its history, but Mexico’s Catholicism has been vigorously attacked through the ages to the point that Mexican Society today has only remnants of its Catholic roots. Many Secularist, leftist corrupt Presidents who enacted Anti-Catholic laws. In fact, under Constitution of Mexico, public practice of Catholicism remains restricted & even illegal (if you consider the Anti-clerical measures of the Mexican Constitution after the 1910s Revolution). With a Pro-Atheism President Plutarco Calles & governors like Tomas Canabal during the Cristero Wars, Catholicism’s role in Mexico was weakened tremendously. The corrupt Anti-Catholic PRI party that’s in power (with the President Nieto recently ignoring the murder of 42 college kids), Mexico can be truthfully & sadly considered a Post-Catholic/Christian nation (like most of European nations). Mexican Narcos, traffickers & supporters worship heretical cults (like Santa Muerte- death/killings) which even Mexican bishops threatening & imposing excommunication of the “Santa Muerte” heretics. Many in Mexico have abandoned practice of the Catholic Faith & cannot be identified as Catholics
Charles,
The fullness of Truth may not be in any Catholic on earth if they were scrutinized by the Almighty. Let’s take Pope Benedict in Verbum Domini sect. 42. It’s short if you want to check it tonight.
Benedict is saying that the massacres of the Old Testament were sins of man not mandates of God as the Biblical texts says they were and he urges scholars trained in genre etc.criticism to assess them. Not only is he in error but the error reflects on a much wider question: when scripture says that the Lord mandated this or that, how can a Pope go against 20 centuries of unity on that meaning what it says. Benedict has late life pacifism as did John Paul II and it will get murder victims killed yearly through their error of seeking death penalty abolition. The 1976 Supreme Court notes totally agree with me. But here is that pacifism again…now seeking to get scholars to see the herem as not from God when Christ told Jerusalem that the future one 70 AD would be from God because ” you have not known the time of your visitation”.
Mindboggling error within Benedict because of his hatred of violence. And in 70 AD which Benedict doesn’t mention and which can have zero to do with ” genre” within the OT, 1.1 million are killed…more than all of the OT herem Benedict was worried about.
In that text you’ll see Benedict say ” the prophets challenged…every form of violence…individual and communal”.
Impossible. The Sinai Covenant which lasted til Christ promised the Jews they would kill their enemies in battle if..if they obeyed God’s commandments.; Elijah killed minimum of 552 men; Eliseus was ordered by God to kill any of the house of Ahab that escaped Jehu; God thanks..speaks to Jehu, a prophet/ king, thanks him for killing the idolaters; the prophet Samuel kills Agag because Saul failed to…I could go on and on. A Pope of 1 billion Catholics didn’t know his OT and no one corrects him probably out of career fear.
But ” fullness of Truth”…. who is it in actually if not in a Pope who headed the CDF for 20 years prior? If God cross examined me or you, where would our odd spots be?
In short… doctrinal perfection….may not be God’s main interest unless the very core de fide beliefs that augment righteousness within a person like belief in the Trinity. I think the Amish please Him on marriage as a group etc more so than do Catholics. Pew Research showed that in every Latin American country, Protestants were more against gay marriage than Catholics. 81% of Mexico by the way self identifies as Catholic but 60% of Mexico offer food and drink to the spirits.
Okay if penalizing Mexican heritage (Dia de Los Muertos) over supposedly “offering spirits” (when today, we actually do it simply to remember our ancestors) is fair, then American culture must be penalized for having huge statues (“graven images”) of fallen soldiers at memorials, football champ statues at stadiums, & presidents (Lincoln, Jefferson monumental statues) in DC since the Bible is clear on banning statues. The abolition of the death penalty is a necessary action. The death penalty is no longer needed, opposes the culture of life & love, & dishonors Christ Crucified, whom we preach. Also, I agree Amish people are great, but nevertheless, Catholic teaching on matrimony (Sacrament, based on St. Matthews Gospel) is superior to Amish teaching on matrimony- no matter how both faith adherents live out their teachings. Again, distinguish Catholicism (fullness) & Individual Catholics (sinners).
Abolishing the death penalty increases not passion murders but premeditated murders according to the 1976 US Supreme Court which had stopped executions from 1972-1976. They weighed all studies and chose those which affirmed execution’s superior pro life results. The Church is effectively protecting criminals and getting innocent killed in increased numbers. Google Joanna Shepherd Michigan Law Review Brutalization death penalty.
The last three Popes all have avoided citing Romans 13:4.
Catholic countries without the death penalty are horrible in terms of murder unless they are old line like Austria which was formed for centuries by the death penalty then stopped it.
The largest Catholic countries Brazil and Mexico are murder centers…both are 60 times less safe than death penalty Japan…and Japan actually makes things like cars almost perfectly….Brazil and Mexico….not so much.
When the Church decouples from Scripture, in this case Rom.13:4, then bad results follow. Jeffrey Dahmer and Fr. Gheoghan were killed by lifers in non death penalty states….they can’t be punished further than life which they were already serving…..ergo the new papal policy will get inmates killed by other inmates, will allow gang lifers to order hits outside prison ( hundreds in Cali), and will increase innocent victims worldwide. Catholic authors will be mute…watch. We lack the healthy division Christ called for. Instead we have parrot city.
The ends do not justify the means. Only because you support the needless, inhumane, anti-Christ, pro-death penalty does not mean the Church & her Patriarchs of Rome have “decoupled from Romans 13:4” (which does not speak of death penalties). The Church follows Grace & Divine Law of God, not Machiavellian, nor the legalism of men, nor utilitarianism, nor Republican. We must follow Divine Law (of which the highest is to love God & neighbor with all our being) which is unchanging. We must follow men’s laws except when it contradicts Divine law as St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Paul (an ex-Pharisee) & St. Thomas More (an ex-chancellor who died defending Divine law over the changing laws of men) & even Baptist Rev MLK Jr. (with his Civil Disobedience) have shown. Elijah fan, last point: have you seen the countless studies of people (between 1940s-1990s) being WRONGLY killed under the Death Penalty but later being shown to be innocent based on later DNA evidence. The Death Penalty has killed INNOCENT people; that injustice cries out to Heaven. Elijah, like a wise man said after the Salem witch trials (that resulted in 19 wrongful executions), I rather let 100 guilty men who have murdered live (under prison life sentence) than to wrongfully execute one single Innocent man. We preach Christ Crucified (the Innocent One who bore absolutely no sins but was wrongly & unjustly put to legal Roman execution), we do not preach blood-thirst crowds who shout in hunger for legal executions & let Jesus go to his death penalty while Barabbas was given freedom. Death Penalties need to be completely abolished in our modern societies; the cries of heaven demand this. Elijah, if you want more death penalties, move to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (where people love legal executions), the Islamic State of Iraq/Syria, or the Islamic Republic of Iran. Muslims & Islam do not know Christ’s Grace, we Christians should.
Christ repeated the death penalty for murder of Genesis 9:6 in Romans 13:4 as Aquinas noted in the Summa T. because the Church says God authored ” both Testaments in all their parts”.
Ergo Christ Himself affirmed Romans 13:4 as Author. I read Evangelium Vitae wherein John Paul wrote on the death penalty without ackowledging either Gen.9:6 nor Romans 13:4 on it. I believe right after death he was punished in purgatory for that lack of acknowledgement. Sainthood means he is in Heaven as of the canonization date which was years after his death.
Purgatory also was where he probably suffered for not protecting altar boys after knowing of the problem in 1985 when he thus appointed a priest to look into it in the US but afterwards, he did nothing zealous to protect them nor did he ever meet with any victims from 1985 til his death.
So you know people’s states in the after life because… why, again? Did you appoint yourself God who alone is Judge? You don’t know anything about St. John Paul’s or anybody’s state after death. He could have undergone his ‘purgation’ while on Earth suffering from Parkinson’s before death, thus, deeming purgation in Purgatory unnecessary. Furthermore, you don’t know a person’s reasons for being sent to Purgatory, only God knows. Elijah fan, the fact that you think you know people’s state of souls & the reasons for it is prideful, sinful, ignorant, & plain wrong. ONLY GOD can read an individual’s soul, NOT you. Get off your high horse. Secondly, people do not get sent/undergo Purgatory because they disagree with your opinions on the death penalty. They can be sent to Purgatory for disagreeing with the Bride of Christ’s (aka Church’s) position on steadfastly opposing the death penalty. Thirdly, Elijah fan, You know absolutely nothing about my knowledge & studies of Sacred Scriptures. Again, I see you exhibit: pride, sinfulness, ignorance. Fourthly, look at your own sins before going around the internet spreading lies about others. You have no idea about the events that transpired between St. Pope John Paul the Great and the Vatican concerning the USA child abuse cases. Many people have affirmed that St. John Paul was greatly distressed, angry & aggressive towards the USA hierarchy. Also, another factor was that when Karol Wojtyla was bishop of Soviet Communist Krakow in Poland, Soviets had spies on him at all times & the Soviets (the great Propagandists that they were & based on how much they hated the Catholic Church) would publicize SCANDALOUS LIES & unfounded accusations about Catholic bishops in their Soviet lands all the time. This experience led St. John Paul to distrust the emerging media reports about USA abuse cover-ups. It was a prudentially wrong decision on the great Pope’s part, but based on St. Thomas Aquinas’ & the Catechism’s definition of culpability, his role in the mess (which he learned about as he was dying from Parkinson’s while being the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics) is very lessened. Later, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict (as Pope Francis is doing too) dealt with those cover-ups quite severely. Elijah, but the most major factor is that when in his last years of life when Pope John Paul was suffering gravely of Parkinson’s (which you have no idea how horrible it is) many bad, corrupt powerful individuals in the Vatican took advantage of Pope John Paul the Great’s physical & mental weakness & Decline. These corrupt Vatican individuals were the ones who even isolated Pope JP2 from dealing more aggressively with the USA coverups. This is one of the reasons why Pope Benedict XVI (who as Cardinal got to personally see how corrupt Vatican officials took advantage of dying/aging Pope JP2’s decline) RESIGNED. Pope Benedict did not want corrupt Vatican forces to take advantage of him & his Papacy as he aged/declined & entered his late 80s. Elijah fan, learn history, learn Sacred Scripture, & let go off your pride before commenting.
. Don’t be a cover up artist. God wants Catholics with common sense. No top man in the Church worked zealously to protect children in those years. None. The entire world knows it. If Catholic apologetics equals being a makeup man putting mascara on the Bride of Christ, we’re in trouble. Good bye. Don’t write again to me because we hijacked this lady’s article in the first place. I think you lost a model of the Church that was too perfect from the get go. Scripture in the final book has God speaking to the 7 churches and rebuking several much or little….that’s telling you perfection of the Church is centuries off in the future. I won’t read anything long from you henceforth so don’t waste the time. You lost a paradigm. Let it go. Rebuilding that same paradigm is a waste of time.
I’m writing to you because you are nobody to tell me what to do. If I chose to respond to your ignorant insults & lack of common sense, I have every right to do so. I need NOT your permission, thank you very much. It’s you who lost the paradigm, goodbye. I’m free to post as I like. However, I do not give you permission to reply to me, though. Goodbye
PS- for the record, it was you who made this article irrelevant by talking about your support & Love of Executing humans (aka death penalty)
Ha – you regurgitate the same “stuff” all over the internet. No wonder you consider yourself an expert on the subject. The little else you talk about makes no sense at all. Like saying the pope should tax all catholics – stupid & impossible to do. He has no authority to do so – you didn’t know that. There are not 1.2 billion Catholics in the world – that is way too high as most no longer attend and would not pay anyway. The pope only gets money through Peter’s Pence – that is a Voluntary Offering.
Elijah killed a minimum of 552 men. This is the source of your ‘fandom.’ u r crazy.
I read some of your posts that also had other stupid statements – all from such a supposedly smart Jesuit Dominican trained Catholic. you don’t know as much as you think. you’re a street punk bully which is why you spew vile remarks about people for no good reason. Glad I chose not to play your childish games and did not lower myself to your level. Do not respond as I will not. you are not worth it.
Actually Father Pavone specializes only in abortion. I specialize in the death penalty because I knew two murder victims..both murdered within a block of my house when young but in two separate years. The Church through this 1995 and 1997 mistake is about to begin a century of enabling more murders statistically. Ergo a future Pope will apologize for thousands killed just as John Paul II apologized for the 5 K heretic victims of Inquisitional burnings.
Once upon a time I felt the same way about the Latin mass, but eventually I came to realize the Faith had to be put in a linguistic bank, and that’s what Latin is.
Anyway, Elijah fan, I hope the best for you.
To you the same.
I’m sorry but are you a follower of Christ & His holy (Catholic) Church which is His one & only Bride or a follower of Miss Joyce Meyer? Why do Miss Joyce Meyer’s sessions fill stadiums? Because our Lord Christ warned us of false shepherds & false messiahs who would come after Him. They would be popular but false; these false prophets/teachers preach a false gospel. Joyce Meyer promotes the “word of faith movement” heresy; she has also supported the “Prosperity Gospel” heresy. Why are false prophets/teachers (like Meyer or Muhammad or Mormon Joseph Smith- all who drew large crowds) popular? Because people want to hear what they like to hear (even if it’s false/heresy). They despise to hear what they NEED to hear for their salvation because it’s “inconvenient” or “uncomfortable” to them. But the true Gospel is Not about conveniences & personality comforts, Elijah fan. Also, you need to study early Church history. Read the Didache for a start. The first Christians (including the holy Apostles) were JEWISH, not American middle class suburbanites; Jews who worshipped in Temples on Saturdays & then went to celebrate the Eucharist (in secret) on Saturday evening vigils (which is considered Sunday). Christ’s Church (like a seed grows branches & leaves or a baby develops into adulthood) was meant to grow & develop over ages, which is why the first Christians (who were Jews & worshipped the Eucharist in secret for fear of persecution from Romans & Non-Christian Jewish elites). Elijah fan, using your logic, we Christians (Catholics & Protestants alike) should be worshipping as Jews in secret/hiding. How the heck were early Christians supposed to worship in stone buildings when Christianity was ILLEGAL until Constantine?? Also, sitting Pews were a Protestant invention (not Catholic), that’s the only point I agree with you; even Eastern Orthodox (who are Schismastic but also actually Apostolic- unlike Protestants) do Not use Pews in their Eucharistic worship in modern times. Finally, if Miss Meyer likes quoting Sacred Scriptures so much, why doesn’t she quote St. Paul’s prohibition of Women preachers?
Temple, singular, my spelling mistake. Synagogues on Saturday Sabbath. And worship on Temple for holy days.
Many of her sermons and anecdotes show no sign of heresy and could have been said by St. Ambrose. I would guess if you took 100 of her sermons, 80 are not on dogma questions but on living from the epistles as to daily conduct. I have 16 years Catholic school, read all of the Bible after that, and read most of Augustine and all of the Summa T. by Aquinas….and
i read the Didache which I don’t recommend since it has bizarre moments in which it warns against e.g. lying because it leads to stealing.
I rarely found Meyers wandering into heresy area. I don’t like her financial acquisitiveness at all but I similarly hurl at the thought of Bill Donohue making 400K a year at the Catholic Defense League from peoples’ donations….and he says what he knows his donatets want to hear….livid ad hominems and red faced anger in interviews but then how livid is he at home when he’s sees the stock porfolio. I think he smiles at home.
Elijah fan, a single drop of poison can kill an elephant. It depends on the poison. A single heretical idea can put a person on the wrong side of everything, of the great divide between heaven and hell, on the wrong side of history, on the wrong side of life. I do not know where you found Meyers wandering into heresy, you don’t say. But anything that qualifies as heresy is forbidden to Catholics to promote, to admire, to use. Right? Btw, you appear to be self-taught–your sixteen years of Catholic school cannot count unless you can demonstrate they were first of all, really Catholic (that’s not a given at all now), and second of all, that you actually learned what was offered (not just you, that would be a criteria for anyone in a society where people just don’t get flunked in religion, so passing from level to level does not certify competence). Reading Augustine or Aquinas on one’s own is no guarantee of orthodoxy of interpretation. I am not trying to be a smart alec, honestly. I just don’t want you to fool yourself into thinking you are fully qualified yet to rely on your opinions. In this case, Meyers knows enough to know she ought to be Catholic, yet she is not. This does not argue well for her.
You’re warning me and you are friendly to the SSPX and you don’t know what de fide means? Are you serious?
I have to help you besides being justly angry at your arrogance.
Read on the SSPX….read, read, read. You haven’t. Their
Eucharist in their Masses is valid but illicitly done. They are thus sinning each time they offer Mass objectively…..but subjectively only God can judge them but that have no juridical right to offer the Mass. They keep refusing to sign documents which Popes have put before them.
On de fide. At this next link, go way down to section 8 then number 1. This is the Intro to Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma which most priests used in the middle of the 20th century for dogma questions. Save the link and read it in the future too.
http://www.iamonetruth.com/fcd.html
Keep researching it, Elijah fan. You wouldn’t sign them either. They depart from the Faith. We can’t do that. On de fide, you asked for documents supporting the statement that mass is for God, and I still do not know how you are using the term in that context. Ott’s work summarizes the teaching, but is a secondary source to the primary sources of the dogmatic Councils and papal teachings.
You are incorrect and you could avoid heresy and be sunk by schism, a separate sin which is about obeying. You’re flirting with disaster. Dathan and Abiram were swallowed by the earth for schism in respect to Moses….not for heresy. Call a Catholic college you trust and see if you can meet with a theology prof. priest.
See if you trust him and then discuss all these things. I resent the last three Popes on their treatment of the death penalty and their failure to be zealous in protecting kids as to the two previous ones. but Augustine restricted “heresy” to those who were adequately challenged and remained adamant after adequate challenge….which doesn’t happen that often.
But they are NOT schismatic. Your ecclesial superiors have said so.
Give us the links.
Elijah, I’m sorry but what’s this fixation on Miss Joyce Meyer? The idea of a woman “pastoress” is purely unbiblical; even Protestants like Southern Baptists (the largest Protestant denomination) recognize this. Her promotion within Catholic circles will be used by advocates of Women “priestesses” (an idea of paganism, Not Temple Judaism nor Apostolic Christianity like Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy); unfortunaley, there are MANY who are still pushing for “priestesses” from within the Church (who are excommunicated) & from outside the Church (Anglicanism & even Jimmy Carter). Her association with the heretical “word of faith movement” (borne out of beliefs of Mormonism adopted by Pentecostalists) is alarming. Catholicism does not need to take leads from neither Joyce Meyer, nor Joel Osteen, nor Benny Hinn, nor Sun Myung Moon, nor other false teachers. The only Megachurch pastor worthy of Catholicism’s attention is Rick Warren.
We’re not speaking of Phil Donahue here. He is irrelevant to our discussion. He is also within our Church. If you’ve got a problem with his approach, talk to him personally- before openly speaking ill of his name (without him being able to defend it). Have you sent him a letter or e-mail with concerns? Have you tried calling by phone or even meet him in person?
Not Phil Donohue…Bill Donohue who is thoroughly aware through adverse Catholic articles on him that his pay is exorbitant. His reply is that some nun head of a hospital also gets that. Deceptive answer. She must give it to her order’s communal fund…and he knows that.
Scripture says, ” I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over men.”
But any Cardinal on earth will note that means being Bishop or pastor which Meyers shouldn’t do but….simple commentary on the obvious aspects of scripture was done by Catholic female saints who are thus Doctors of the Church now. Did you let nuns teach religion to your kids?
I do not acknowledge Protestant “worship” services as true worship (Sacrifice-priesthood, Catholic priest offering the perfect sacrifice of Christ to the Abba/Father, which is a central part of Mass), but for argument’s sake, let’s say it is. Having a woman preside over a congregation in its “worship” service is Not even close to the same as nuns teaching kids or women Saints teaching theology through writings or in a public space. And no, sadly, my kids do not have nuns as teachers. There were both negative & positive changes after Second Vatican Council; sadly, many Parochial schools replaced nuns with lay teachers.
And the most special thing we have: the Eucharist, and the possibility of daily communion, of physically uniting with, the living God. Those moments in intimate union with Christ, to be loved by Him, to love Him, to share one’s fears and joy there in the quiet of mass. I personally have the privilege of attending daily traditional mass at 7 in the morning, which it seems to me only a handful of people in the whole world get to enjoy (I have ended up retired in Chicago, close to the SSPX priory there), my favorite time of day when the light is so kind to our beat-up old city. You get all that, and Christ! It’s just awesome. It’s the perfect way to live the days and years.
Jesus Christ is physically present in the tabernacle in all Catholic churches. Anyone can visit Him there, you don’t even have to be in the state of grace, you can be the most miserable and desperate sinner, and you will find HIm there waiting for you. We Catholics alone have this incredible gift. May God preserve us from making it any less special, any less reserved and protected and thereby honored. Yes, we have to be in the state of grace to receive Him. It’s that special. But not to visit HIm! Do it today. If you get a copy of St. Alfonsus Ligouri’s Visits to the Blessed Sacrament, he thinks of some things to tell Our Lord that will open your heart up like a key had been fitted–although he’s happily over the top.
Thank you for this post, I am so glad to hear it said. I think we should beware of any generic Come to Jesus invitations that leave out our Church, our baptism in Christ, and the Eucharist, with all its requirements. Only that is the path, just as it always was and always will be. But what a sweet path!
SSPX are schismastic. Avoid them & find a true Tridentine Mass in communion with the Patriarch of Rome. Don’t endanger your soul.
I don’t know where Charlie gets this. To be schismatic, someone or group has to disagree with Catholic teaching. SSPX does not, and no one in Rome has said so, save one indiscreet comment from someone who is not the authority to say it (I don’t have the keyboard to type his name right). Your soul really is endangered by anyone who tries to sell you a ‘walk with Jesus’ without the Church.
Who is selling me what you stated (“walk with Jesus w/o His Church”)?? I’m a faithful, Traditionalist Latin-rite Catholic. If anybody tried to sell me such lies/heresy, I would have set them straight. SSPX are openly Schismastic, divisive, & disobedient. A true son (or daughter) of Christ’s holy Church is neither divisive (which is of the devil) nor openly Schismastic/disobedient. Holy Padre Pio, pray for the confused soul of “TheWhiteLily”.
Charlie, the present Holy Father as well as Benedict are recommending what theologians have referred to as ‘Catholic lite” or “low intensity Catholicism” which promotes an ethic ‘shared’ by all men which recognizes a ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ that does not include the Church. The interwebs are full of it, so are many traditional sites, so you will be able to find it–altho many do not include Benedict, since he spoke so often in support of the traditional mass. And again, you can’t set anybody straight about SSPX being schismatic, because the Church at its highest levels recognizes that it is not. Divisive? If that’s what you call bringing it, then fine. Somebody better.
Um…the very PREFECT of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith agrees.
No, Charlie, the SSPX are NOT schismatic in the opinion of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and Cardinal Muller, the Prefect of the CDF under Benedict and Francis.
You have zero authority to make such a slanderous claim, and you contradict your ecclesial superiors who possess that authority.
Quotes please…from Benedict and Muller not John Salza or anything derivative….Benedict and Muller.
I believe your take on the relationship clause that ex and fallen away Catholics are supposedly looking for is off course. I would think that most everyone who left has done so to avoid becoming a hypocrite. They will not remain united to a church whose rules pre dispose them to annul. And speaking of rules and canon law, it is always unclear just how many we are talking about– ie: there are 613 in Judaism.
If you are going to impose sanctions ( loss of the Eucharist ) and fatal decrees (mortal sin assigned to just about all of them) you will not get a lot of folks who will keep their chips on those kind of odds.
Obviously, you don’t understand the Catholic Church.
Been understanding it fine for 60 years plus thank you
You can’t have a correct understanding from the comments you made.
If you say so.
Well said! As a convert from evangelical protestantism (38 yrs and counting…), I know well the question ‘Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?’ My answer, typically, is: Yes, by the grace of God I am in an intimate loving communion with Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church He founded on St. Peter (St. Matthew 16:18). A bit wordy, I know, but it tends to start good conversations.
In my former protestant circles, the emphasis was so much on individualistic piety—me+God alone—that there was little room for the Church Jesus founded. That, and whether they realized it or not, people tended to act like he or she were his or her own pope. Without reference to Apostolic teaching, it was far too easy to reinvent faith in one’s own image according to one’s feelings rather than configuring oneself to objective truth. The title of the well known author Thomas Howard’s book puts it succinctly and truthfully: evangelical is not enough.
You have nuanced beautifully the relationships one finds in Jesus’ Church which help us grow closer to God. I agree entirely that the better we know the truths of the Faith, i.e., the teachings of Christ’s Church, and the more we conform ourselves to Christ’s commands (St. John 14:15) and know Him in Holy Scripture, the more we know Him. Daily Mass has been a most beautiful gift from God that has helped me better dispose myself to His transforming grace. I am blessed in that holy arena, encountering the Real Presence of Jesus and being schooled in the Faith (we have a solidly orthodox chaplain who teaches the whole truth and nothing but the truth).
Thank you for your article.